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-   -   language use in forum threads (https://www.trekearth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789502)

pasternak 11-17-2009 11:16 AM

language use in forum threads
 
Dear all,

I think it is not fair to the non-francophone members of the site to use French in the forum threads. Recently, there have been several interesting threads in which people who do not read French could not participate. For example "Coming out" or "Baisse d'activité sur TE". When I receive a critique in french, I find it no problem at all, because critiques are mostly short and my embryonic French is enough for them. But reading long texts in French (let alone writing a response in French) requires too much of my time and effort, pardonez-moi... I tried to translate the French texts using an online translator but the results are awful.

I think everybody can make a small effort and write in English, it does not have to be perfect at all. I am not a native English speaker myself, but I would use English even if half of the TE members were Russian speakers. This is just a sign of respect to others, don't you think? And on top of that, there is no use in talking about members leaving the site if many of them are feeling "linguistically challenged" and as a result, alienated.

Romatou 11-17-2009 12:05 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Cher ami : voici un extrait des conditions d'utilisations officielles du site , en Anglais , pour ne pas trop te fatiguer , ceci est la rédaction des concepteurs du site.

Prends en bonne note , learning about the world could also mean , taking some interest in other's way of speaking.



Multilingual Capability

* View page in any language (currently Chinese ~Traditional & Simplified~, Dutch, English French, Japanese, Lithuanian, Polish, Portuguese, Russian and Spanish)
* Write information about photos and oneself, critiques, and forum discussions in any language


Mais je te félicite de tomber à bras raccourcis sur les sujets d'expression française ,
cela ménagera les autres idiomes qui nous cotoient dans la barbarie , dont nous pouvons cependant subir quelquefois les assauts insupportables : j'ai vu de l'italien , du polonais et même du turc ici ..... ilots insupportables de résistance , probablement le fait de quelques individus isolés , pas encore convaincus des vertus du
lissage universel ....

KLB 11-17-2009 12:35 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Hello Alexander

Since one of the mentioned topics concern me, I'll explain to you.
Personally, I use English for non-francophone members when I write a critique, when I send a mail, or when I participate in a discussion begun in English; like you do.
My English is not perfect, but enough to express short thoughts without too many mistakes, I think.
For this thread "coming out" that you mentioned, it was a reply to another subject, for which the majority (almost all) of participants were French or Francophones.
What I had to say was important for me and it was easier for me to express myself properly in my mother tongue, to make me understand. You must be comfortable to argue and defend a position ;o)

I could use your own words :
"But [writing] long texts in [english] requires too much of my time and effort... I tried to translate [into english] using an online translator but the results are awful."

In any case, it's a lack of respect of the other participants.
Regards,
Karine

pasternak 11-17-2009 12:46 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Dear Karine,

I respect you and all the other francophone members. Moreover, I respect your right to express yourself in any language you like. And I do not question the TOS that allow you to do so.

It's just that I often want to read the threads in French, because I think they are very interesting, and I can't...

And yes, to me it may be a question of lack of time. But to lots of other members, who do not know French at all, it is worse...

On the other note, if you write in French, you narrow your audience to the francophone members only. If you write in English, your audience is much wider...

Or do I miss something?

Regards
A.

John_F_Kennedy 11-17-2009 03:32 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Hi,
read my thread about the same issue some month/years ago and have fun
<a href="http://www.trekearth.com/read.php?f=1&t=575089&m=794718&tt=flat">Non-english threads</a>

Viele Grüße,
Achim

Keitht 11-17-2009 03:36 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
For members who are not native English speakers, and who are not fluent in English either, it makes much more sense to me that they post comments in their native tongue. There is always the facility for translation, but that should be done by the person reading the comment, not the writer - in my opinion.
I believe it is easier to get the true sense of what somebody means by translating from a language they are comfortable with than by them trying to express themselves in a language they are not comfortable with.

BennyV 11-18-2009 11:07 AM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Groot gelijk, maar je kan niks verplichten. Als ik in het Nederlands schrijf, richt ik mij nu eenmaal tot een kleiner publiek.

English is the language with the widest global reach. Obviously this is an enormous advantage to the natives, as every one else will have to use a second or foreign language to communicate. But that's the way it is.

On the other hand, everyone is free to use the language of his/her choice. But you should know that if you write in e.g. Latvian in an international forum, this will seriously limit your possible audience.

Voilà, da's mijn gedacht.

Benny

nszeretlek 11-18-2009 12:23 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
I agree with Alexander since despite i feel by far much more comfortable when i write in Spanish i´m aware many of us don´t understand it and i would like you to interact with me and everyone else here . That´s why , in my opinion , English is really important as a more or less common international language . Let´s imagine if people from Hungary would write only in Hungarian , Greeks in Greek , from Tanzania in Suahili...Chinese ... and so on .. It is a fact for many of us is not too difficult to write some thoughts or points of view in English...

I´ve been writting ,so far ,my notes and comments in that very language(English) when being able to do so more easily in Spanish, just for the exposed reason that i´m for to set up an attempt of fluent communication and arrive to most of you who don´t know Spanish ...

And to conclude , i´m not so lucky to speak French ...:(

Keitht 11-18-2009 03:33 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
I don't disagree with the observation that by writing in English you reach the widest audience. If people are confident with written English then that is certainly a bonus. I still say that if a person isn't confident in written English they are better posting notes, critiques in their native language than in a form of English which is difficult to interpret.

Didi 11-18-2009 05:06 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
There is on Serbian Treker who writes me in his language.
It's not disturbing me I translate Serbian with Google.
Everybody is free to use the best way to write a critic.
I wrote my notes in French and English and I feel more difficult to write in English

oochappan 11-19-2009 02:13 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
If you are a moderator on a English based site you should maintain the language that would be understand by the majority ... not doing so when moderating is a form of abusive chauvinistic insult towards the majority as if there would be different measures to allow photos along their native language. What's there to hide ?

The choice of language in a note is a right as the note is copyrighted too.

Didi 11-19-2009 04:58 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Carper and John Maenhout write their critics in English for my pictures
I write my critics to them in French, since more than six years.
There is no problems between us at all and no complications.

pasternak 11-19-2009 05:12 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
I'd just like to repeat that my concern by no means applied to critiques, which are mostly short and easy to understand (with or without an online translator), but rather to the forum messages which can be long and difficult to translate even for a person who knows a bit of French.

leo61 11-19-2009 06:22 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
I totally agree with Alexander(Pasternak)
My french is extremely poor,I never learned it at school,but I learned 4 years latin,which helps a lot for roman languages.
Most of the french comments I recieve I understand without poor bablefish.Only sometimes I send a message to a friend who is a translator
english-german-french.
I tried to follow these interesting latest threads in french language, but I failled.
Schöne Grüße aus Deutschland,
Leo

Didi 11-19-2009 06:48 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Bonjour Andreas
I wrote you in English and sometimes in French because when I had a hard work journey I have some difficults to write in English I hope it's not disturbing you.
Best regards

Didi 11-19-2009 06:49 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
With Internet Explorer it's possible to translate the all page in your favorite language
I have a translator in the tool bar

fkostas 11-19-2009 07:32 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Learning French would solve the problem, if you find the French threads to be interesting. Why is it a sign of respect to use English, wher the majority of people on TE use other languages? I think it's time to learn more Turkish than 1-10, myself.

Speak English in a majority English speaking area, but TE isn't that place.

pasternak 11-19-2009 07:50 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Why is it a sign of respect to use English, wher the majority of people on TE use other languages?

Because if the idea is to make forum threads accessible to as many TE members as possible, it is neccessary for them either to be in, or to be easily translatable into, the language that the majority of members can understand. And I still believe that if we have to select one language that the majority of TE members understand, then it will still be English, no matter that English is not the mother tongue of most members.

Otherwise, let's split TE into French TE, Italian TE, German TE, Turkish TE, Polish TE, etc...

fkostas 11-19-2009 09:58 PM

Re: devious plot
 
I think it's all just a devious plot to kick of the Turks and the Poles, because they are the best photographers by and large. Come on, French is easy.

Does it really bother you that badly to see a conversation in a language you don't speak? I thought photography was a visual art. I comment on many photos usually written in Polish or Turkish, even if they don't respond because they can't, or just think I suck. :)

If we are to go to one language, I think we all should agree on something like Tagalog. Or whatever they speak in say, Canada. Sorry Canada, you know I love you.

oochappan 11-20-2009 08:25 AM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Because if the idea is to make forum threads accessible to as many TE members as possible

Right, 350 million people speak English in the world while only 70 million people speak French.
Newyork being the top center of cultural events thanks to their multicultural input finding each other through the English language ...

So, it is logic to use English on a general forum, certainly as moderator.
The attitude of a minority to impose a language to a majority raises questions about the credibility of their remote motivations risking isolation from the world. Breaking conservative self-protective language habit by learning more languages is a key to meet other cultures. Bridges to other cultures are mostly built through English.

Romatou 11-20-2009 09:45 AM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
1 ) au passage :
Avec 201 millions de locuteurs francophones réels dans le monde (évaluation Organisation mondiale de la Francophonie : 2009) et 255 millions de locuteurs comme seconde langue et langue étrangère (incluant l'Afrique noire et le Maghreb) le français est la sixième langue la plus parlée dans le monde . CE QUI N'A AUCUNE
ESPËCE D'IMPORTANCE DANS LE SUJET QUI NOUS AGITE.

2) Les autres langages prévus explicitement dans les conditions d'utilisation de TE sont évidemmement aussi dignes d'interêt et de considération.

3) Il n'a jamais été interdit de faire des notes bilingues

4)" Breaking conservative self-protective language habit by learning more languages is a key to meet other cultures " nothing can be more true !

4 ) Le site étant devenu le terrain de chasse privilégié de la mouche à deux culs ,il est à prévoir que la tendance aux départs n'est pas encore sur le déclin.

pasternak 11-20-2009 09:57 AM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Francois (and some others), I think you are missing the point here.

The idea is neither to write TE forum threads in the "main language in the world" (because it does not exist), nor to write them in the most spoken language in the world (because then we would have to use Chinese).

The idea is simply to use the language that MOST OF TE MEMBERS would understand. It is just the question of convenience (and mutual respect)...

Cheers!
A

Romatou 11-20-2009 10:16 AM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
The idea is never telling somebody what he has to do . Especially when he is ok with the site's rules. That could be another kind of respect.

So long.

emilbo 11-21-2009 05:12 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Salut Alexander,
Je ne vois aucun problème au sujet de la langue sur le forum, que ce soit une langue ou l'autre, moi j'utilise le traducteur suivant: http://www.reverso.net/text_translation.asp?lang=FR, tu n'as qu'a faire "copier" "coller" et la traduction est instantanée.
Bonne journée,
Emilius

Didi 11-21-2009 05:40 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Bonjour Emilius
Le traducteur de Google sur la barre d'outils d'IE8 ou IE7 permet de traduire En une fraction de seconde toute une page d'un site sans être Obligé de faire un copier coller.
Il ya le choix sur une cinquantaine de langues.
Bonne journée

guillaumejm 11-22-2009 10:40 AM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Ok Guys! I'll post a french / english comment

Je voulais juste rappeler une petite mésaventure qu'il m'est arrivé de vivre sur ce site, justement sur un forum. En général mon anglais est correct mais pas toujours suffisant pour exprimer des idées. Un Américain n'arrivant pas à comprendre ce que j'écrivais (et peut-être avec raison) m'a tout simplement écrit : lorsqu'on ne sait pas écrire l'anglais on ne participe pas aux forums en anglais :).
Que me reste-t-il alors si je n'ai pas le droit non plus de participer aux forums en français ????.
je vous laisse méditer.

I just wanted to remind a little bad experiment that happened to meon this site, on a forum. In general my English is correct but not always sufficient to express ideas. An American encountering difficulties to understand what I wrote (and perhaps with reason) just wrote: When you can not write English correctly you have not to participate in english speaking forums :).

So what solutions have I if I have no right not to participate in english forums because of my english and also not in french forums because of english speaking natives ????.
I let you meditate.

JMarc

KLB 11-22-2009 12:31 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Ahahah ! Voilà qui remet bien les pendules à l'heure Jean-Marc.

Merci de ce fabuleux contre-exemple ;o)

Très grande ouverture d'esprit l'interlocuteur en question, dis donc. Chapeau bas ;o)

Karine

oochappan 11-22-2009 12:54 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Mes félicitation d'ouvrir tes horizons par une autre langue que ta langue maternel. Noticing that you better don't use English if you don't know it well, seems to be only chauvinistic harrassment.

I suppose the origin of the problem lies in a thread called "Coming out", an English title while the discussion was totally in French. So many were mislead by the title alone.

But when someone reveals to be nominated as moderator with an excuse to use French not knowing English well, questions rises if you fit to be moderator. And when a general issue about photos that are deleted, is only addressed to the French community, another question rises about the eventual different modalities used ...

Pity that only a few chauvinists on TE think that they have to impose their French language on a world site as if they are the only one to know culture ... that provokes of course resentment.

KLB 11-22-2009 02:47 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Henk,

Once again, since my thread is noticed, I will answer...
I should not have to justify myself and I am not so concerned with your words Pity that only a few chauvinists on TE think that they have to impose their French language on a world site because all my notes are written both in French and in English. I write my critiques in English, and my participation as a moderator is made also in English. I read it perfectly but I know that I still make a lot of mistakes by writing. However, it's not really a problem since I can make myself understood (I hope so !)...

The "coming out" thread was written in french, because it was an answer to an other subject in which french community was majoritary and the persons mentioned are French.
It's true, the title was in English, but this is a phrase now common in the French language.

But when someone reveals to be nominated as moderator with an excuse to use French not knowing English well, questions rises if you fit to be moderator...
Now, about my place as a moderator, well I don't know. I guess yes since we asked me...
But I wonder if you are the best member to judge that, since your participation on the site is null since 2008-04-14, and you wrote only 4 critiques for this year...
Sorry, but I don't see any point in participating in the life of a site that does not suit you anymore since a long time.

Regards
Karine

guillaumejm 11-22-2009 03:13 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Bonjour,

Juste pour dernière ma participation a ce forum. Le petit exemple que j'ai donné, allié aux remarques de nombreux participants comme quoi des traducteurs en lignes fonctionnent plutôt pas mal et sont très rapide d'emploi m'encourage a défendre l'idée suivante:
Il est préférable de s'exprimer dans une langue qu'on maitrise au regard du sujet concerné. Si le traducteur automatique fonctionne correctement, et bien les risques d'incompréhension sont donc limités et n'est-ce pas là le plus important : se comprendre, quelle que soit la langue utilisée?.
Il n'est pas question ici d'élitisme franco français ou quoi que ce soit de ce type. Le monde c'est la diversité. Elle est nécessaire, vitale même. Je ne souhaite pas d'un monde ou tout le monde pense pareil et s'exprime dans la même langue, mais je souhaite que tous nous puissions communiquer et peut-être se comprendre.
:)

Bonne continuation
JMarc

Hello

Just to end my participation in this forum. The little example I gave, coupled with observations of so many participants as how translators in lines running pretty good and very fast encourages me to defend the following idea:
It is better to speak in a language in which you can express correctly ideas. If the automatic translator works well and lower the risks of misunderstanding, isn't it the most important to understand each other, regardless of the language used?.
It is not about French elitism or "Franco français" anything of this kind. The world is diversity. It is necessary, even vital. I do not want a world where everyone thinks the same and speak the same language, but I hope we all can communicate and finally perhaps understand each other.

Best regards
JMarc

oochappan 11-22-2009 03:31 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
Karine,

if you still don't get it, it would be better for the majority that you resign as moderator not capable to understand that you caused all the resentment lately.
Stop lying to yourself with abusive harrassing arguments besides the question.

Regards
Henk

KLB 11-22-2009 04:17 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
No, no Henk. All is ok for me.
I know you like to cause disturbance on the forum and that you wait, crounching, for THE subject which lets you have long and useless discussions, but I will not go into your game.
I like TE (sometimes a little less than usual), I like the active community, I like the friendship ambiance... No, sure, I won't resign... Will you ? ;o)

For me, this discussion is definitively closed. I prefer to keep my time for more pleasant exchanges, and for what we are here : photography.
Pasternak has opened the thread. I gave him my answer. He understood with respect.
That was the purpose. So, have fun with your haughty behavior. That's not for me.

Karine

[End]

oochappan 11-22-2009 05:03 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
I couldn't give a better description of your personality Karine ...

BTW if mails are sent around with a request to deny non-Franco point-shooters it confirms only the narrow minded French community to which you belong invading and dominating the site. You still wonder why many left ?

Henk

jlbrthnn 11-22-2009 10:57 PM

Re: language use in forum threads
 
These insults do not encourage to respect their author. Now, it is enough!

Ces insultes n'incitent pas à respecter leur auteur. Maintenant, il suffit!


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