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  #11  
Old 08-25-2010, 10:45 AM
ruisc_pt ruisc_pt is offline
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Default points

I agree completely with Guy Tomer .
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  #12  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:50 PM
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Weetrees Weetrees is offline
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Talking

If a photograph is worth noticing it usually will be
The real difficulty we have is the sheer number of photographs being posted on a daily basis
This reduces the likelyhood of a particular one being picked out unless you are filtering by place or type.

I am far more likely to give a fully green face to an image i like and it has a good note attached.
I also am likely to sift through my favourite members and comment on their photos. Thats the reason they are my favs as i like what they produce on the whole.

A lot of people do not like to critique a picture honestly for fear that they will offend or make the other member angry, not everyone is happy to have had their best photographs described in a way they dont like even if it is honest and genuine feedback.

As for workshops i do a fair few when i think i have a worthwhile contribution to make to the post, but again not everyone is comfortable or has the tools required to do so.

I know its frustrating to see the system work in this way but as someone else pointed out thats just the nature of people.

I did post on this subject in the past and am happy with the responses i got on the subject.

If you like a photo tell the person you do, if you like parts of it tell them that also, if there are parts of it you would do differently or have something constructive to add dont be worried about the reaction as it may help far more people than it upsets

John
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  #13  
Old 08-30-2010, 06:52 AM
macondo macondo is offline
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Default Human nature

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Originally Posted by weetrees View Post
I know its frustrating to see the system work in this way but as someone else pointed out thats just the nature of people.
Well said. I put it a little differently, which is that TE is many things to many people. To some it's photography, to others travel, to another group it has a social side. If it seems not to be what you would like it to be, you should be somewhere else.

If there are many mediocre/bad photos on the site, I don't think that's the fault of the points system, although some may think the points only encourage poor photographers. My observation is that most of the mediocre photos get few points, but might still be worth looking at because of the intrinsic interest of the subject or country. The other thing is, of course, that many really good photos also get few points, but if the members uploading them are happy enough with the responses they receive, good for them. Do they need others to complain on their behalf?
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  #14  
Old 08-30-2010, 01:26 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Originally Posted by macondo View Post
If there are many mediocre/bad photos on the site, I don't think that's the fault of the points system,
The site isn't all about photographic excellence. An 'average' or 'poor' shot can tell us a lot more about the world when accompanied by good notes, than a superbly executed image with no notes of interest.
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  #15  
Old 09-02-2010, 06:02 AM
macondo macondo is offline
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Originally Posted by Keitht View Post
The site isn't all about photographic excellence. An 'average' or 'poor' shot can tell us a lot more about the world when accompanied by good notes, than a superbly executed image with no notes of interest.
I'd definitely agree with that, and it's why I usually prefer photos with good notes, which make even so called 'mediocre' photos worth looking at. But for some members it is, at least partly, about photographic excellence, and that's their prerogative according to my all-encompassing view of TE; it's their complaining that I wouldn't condone. Some members seem to find browsing through 'poor' photographs in the moving gallery too tedious for them. I'm not sure why they complain about it when they could bypass them in their thumbnail form (which gives some sort of indication, at least), if they prefer to view only what they consider good quality photos.
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  #16  
Old 09-11-2010, 12:03 PM
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Longroute Longroute is offline
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Default TE is many things to many people

Andrew,

Although I feel that your initial approach was a healthy one, especially for a moderator (:-), I wouldn’t dismiss Guy’s complaints so easily. Of course “TE is many things to many people” and we have to put up with that, but I think that when a large majority takes a ridiculous and senseless path, like that of voting a photo just to get votes in return – and it’s evident they don’t care for the quality or interest of the photo itself – a small minority who might happen to have some brains has the right and maybe even the duty to try to point out a better direction. Then the whole matter lies in the hands of each individual… we cannot change other people minds, we can only change our own.

And here we must consider one important issue for the well-being of this site, if this issue can be still spoken openly… because of that senseless path which became overwhelming for many of us, a certain number of really good photographers and contributors quitted this site. I fear Guy and maybe myself will follow suit… I miss the time when here I received serious critiques from talented people which pointed out to me the faults of my photos and gave suggestions for improvements. I learnt a lot from them.
Now either those serious critics are gone or are silent. Sincerely I’m fed up of the average comments I receive. If gratifying our ego belongs to human nature, I cannot feel gratified by that sticky flattery.

“I'm not sure why they complain about it when they could bypass them in their thumbnail form (which gives some sort of indication, at least), if they prefer to view only what they consider good quality photos.”

You are forgetting one important fact here Andrew, this is – or should be – a kind of community, and the moment we are posting a photo we are drawn into this community by the people who comment it. The courtesy – if you feel it to be necessary – requires at least to visit the galleries of the people who voted you to see what kind of photos they do and if it’s the case to reciprocate the vote. It’s no use to bypass their thumbnails because a photo cannot be assessed by the thumbnail. So willing or not we all are in the same boat and cannot ignore the plain truth Guy expressed: “how can you say a photo has "good sharpness" when every child can see it is all blurred..”

I think that if some of the respected veterans here would start to examine and comment truthfully the photos they vote, pointing out the faults when it’s the case, of course with the due gentleness, also many other younger members will take the courage to do so.

To Guy:
“I suggest to ban writing critiques to the same TE member within a certain period of time.”

I don’t think it would solve the problem. I’ve attended other sites and they all have the same problem.
No rules can change human nature. But a good example does.

Donato
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  #17  
Old 09-11-2010, 02:39 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longroute View Post
.....“TE is many things to many people” and we have to put up with that, but I think that when a large majority takes a ridiculous and senseless path, like that of voting a photo just to get votes in return – and it’s evident they don’t care for the quality or interest of the photo itself – a small minority who might happen to have some brains has the right and maybe even the duty to try to point out a better direction. Donato
I don't agree that it is a 'large majority' taking that path. I do however accept that there are a significant number and that they are not beneficial to the site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longroute View Post
… because of that senseless path which became overwhelming for many of us, a certain number of really good photographers and contributors quitted this site. I fear Guy and maybe myself will follow suit… I miss the time when here I received serious critiques from talented people which pointed out to me the faults of my photos and gave suggestions for improvements. I learnt a lot from them. Donato
Another valid point. There will always be a flow of people to and from a site, but the reduction in serious critiques from people who really know what they are talking about is not good for the site. Like yourself, I learnt a huge amount in my early days on the site because most critiques were far more detailed than is the case now. If nobody is willing to point out the faults how can any of us learn? A way does need to be found to stem the flow of good photographers / critiquers away from the site, they are too valuable to be ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longroute View Post
Now either those serious critics are gone or are silent. Sincerely I’m fed up of the average comments I receive. If gratifying our ego belongs to human nature, I cannot feel gratified by that sticky flattery. Donato
Agreed again. I wonder how much genuine satisfaction the members of the mutual admiration societies really get by amassing points in this way. Maybe consideration should be given to disabling points on the most blatent members of these cliques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longroute View Post
....this is – or should be – a kind of community, and the moment we are posting a photo we are drawn into this community by the people who comment it. The courtesy – if you feel it to be necessary – requires at least to visit the galleries of the people who voted you to see what kind of photos they do and if it’s the case to reciprocate the vote. It’s no use to bypass their thumbnails because a photo cannot be assessed by the thumbnail. So willing or not we all are in the same boat and cannot ignore the plain truth Guy expressed: “how can you say a photo has "good sharpness" when every child can see it is all blurred..” Donato
As the number of images submitted each day has increased I, for one, certainly don't have time to view every image in detail. Therefore the thumbnail has become more important. I will always try to find the time to view images posted by anybody who critiques my work, but won't necessarily critique their work at that time. Maybe we should be kind in our thoughts on the content of some critiques and just accept that all opinions are subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longroute View Post
I think that if some of the respected veterans here would start to examine and comment truthfully the photos they vote, pointing out the faults when it’s the case, of course with the due gentleness, also many other younger members will take the courage to do so.

Donato
I can't agree with you more on this point. For me the site has always had a number of advantages over other photo-posting sites. (1) The limit on the number of images should concentrate the mind in selecting the best available. (2) Meaningful and informed critiques (3) The basic reason the site was created - Learning about the World.
If everybody can be encouraged to work on those principles we could get back to where the site started and where it should still be.

I must stress that these are my personal views and are not swayed in any way by my role a moderator.
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  #18  
Old 09-11-2010, 03:25 PM
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Longroute Longroute is offline
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Default Large majority

"I don't agree that it is a 'large majority' taking that path."

OK Keith, I must have overestimated the number!

"Maybe we should be kind in our thoughts on the content of some critiques and just accept that all opinions are subjective."

Well said Keith, very much so!
One must always bear that in mind when writing or reading a critique.

Best regards,
Donato
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  #19  
Old 09-12-2010, 07:13 AM
AROBN54 AROBN54 is offline
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Default Just some thoughts...

I am back after a long absence and partly because I fell into a horrible slump I have yet to have gotten totally out of. But .. I come back and there are way many new names and photos, so I try writing critiques for newcomers. I rarely critique a shot I don't like. Well, in fact, I just don't. There are styles I simply don't care for, so I pass. The ones on my list of favorites are there for good reason. I can tell it's them going through thumbnails. But the problem I have, is in writing critiques for newcomers or doing workshops and never getting much of a response is disheartening. How do you know they even WANT your advice? It seems it would be better, even, to get "Thanks, but I liked it the way it was." I try very hard to be, diplomatic in advising anything about someone's shot. And I have let many of my favorites pass for fear of seeming to "suck up". It's a task getting back into writing and doing workshops and stuff. Well, for me anyway. I keep hoping it will all get better. It is nice being back, though.
Shelly
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  #20  
Old 09-12-2010, 08:38 AM
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Longroute Longroute is offline
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Default Just some thoughts...

I know Shelly it’s disheartening.
In some way I think it’s good to talk about it here, to let other people know about this problem, and to know that we are not alone in having these feelings.
But on the other hand what alternative do we have? To write senseless comments? Let’s continue writing what we think is sensate and meaningful for us. If they are not willing to listen too bad for them. Probably they need time to understand what they are doing and looking for here, and in the long run some of them will learn.
I remember once a couple of years ago I said – gently- to a member that his photo was blurred and gave him some hints to avoid it. He replied that he was not interested in improving his photos because he shot them for fun… OK, go on in your chosen path, I thought within myself, but I noticed that after one year his shots were much better…

Ciao,
Donato
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