People of Pakistan

Critiques [Translate]

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• crisnique (853)
• [2007-07-14 2:22]

Ciao Lucie,
Yes, I think you captured a rare women image here. My compliments for the perfect timing!
I like the shy smiles of the girls, the great colours and the excellent sharpness.
Thanks for sharing.
Cristian

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• Bruno40 (4911)
• [2007-07-14 4:11]

Lucie,
Good candid capture. The shy smile is a bonus in this photo. Good timming, excellent sharpeness.
Besides the photo, your note is a reminder of the situation of women in Pakistan and other countries. I think, however, that there is a big difference between rural and urban areas, and by social classes.
This was my impression back in 1993, at least in Karachi and Lahore.
Remember that they had a female PM.
Have a nice weekend
TFS
Jorge

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• mugush (2066)
• [2007-07-14 14:31]

very nice picture.. I like it.. but i dont agree with the note you wrote against the picture.. you took this picture in the very rural area of pakistan.. as Jorge(Bruno40) menssioned there is a big differance among rural and urban cities.. you can see women/girls ,lots of girls,infact plenty of girls on the roads.. even without covering their faces in the cities like Karach,Lahore, Islamabad, Quetta, Sailkot, Haidarabad,Faisalabad,Peshawar etc etc.
you wrote::::>".....They do not have the right to decide about themselves because women are considered as foolish creatures according to the dominant social and cultural norms...."
it is dis information, you wrote something without research.. you have to change it or visit paksitan i will tell you what is ground reality..

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• euryan (8016)
• [2007-07-14 23:05]
• [2]

I applaud you for a brave note Lucie. I feel sorry for women who live in societies that restrict their freedom. As a matter of fact I feel sorry for anyone, man or woman, who lives in a society that restricts his or her freedom. Mugush disagrees with your note, but that is easy for him, he is from Pakistan and he is a man. I have much respect for Mugush, and his opinion, but I think you may have a more objective view on the way women are treated, since you are a woman yourself and have traveled to many different countries and seen many different cultures. This is a very nice picture of two beautiful girls. I hope their futures are bright.
Take care,
Ryan

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• AbdullahCharsee (179)
• [2007-07-15 0:57]

That's a nice picture Lucie, but your note is full backwardness, and I would say almost insulting towards the people of Pakistan (both men and women). Women are persecuted all around the world, whatever the culture. It is not a cultural thing to persecute women, it is a man, a male thing, understand ? In each and every country of the world there are persecuted women.
Travelling is not only about shooting pics, it's also learning about the local culture and meet people, and from what you have written here, seems you haven't done much in Pakistan...
Try again!

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• luisafonso (13474)
• [2007-07-15 10:06]

Brave post dear Lucie. First of all, a photo about people, which explains the absence of your usual critiques. But more important, a photo well supported by a great note. This is the real "learning more about the world through photography" post and I thank you for that. They do seem happy to me and that gesture of hiding the face is a very important detail. Perhaps things in the city are a bit different, but what we hear in the news is very close to what you present here. And you even had a bad experience on the top of that. I can see why you have such a disbelief... Guess Pakistan has a lot to do to change this fame. Concerning the picture, I like it very much. The moment is good and the warm colors are really nice.

Now I have to leave to a beach you already know to get some rest and try to make some pictures. The weather looks promising.

Stay safe, l.

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• happypoppeye (3748)
• [2007-07-15 10:27]

I actually started writing a critique than erased it but figured why not:
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Mugush has you quoted as writing:
".....They do not have the right to decide about themselves because women are considered as foolish creatures according to the dominant social and cultural norms...."
- I see no mention of foolish creatures in your note above so that discredits his/her comment. - unless you changed the note
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I really don't feel it is a brave note. It's your experience of Pakistan and opinion about the women there.
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As for the picture, it has good color but I'm not too crazy about the composition or the two girls hiding their faces. I do like the shaw being blown by the wind though. I know people photography is new to you though and it is not bad for a first time out. All around good work. Good note. As I said to Luca, if I'm going to look for facts on a country, I'm sorry, but it's not going to be on TE. Everyone has a right to their own opinions. Pakistan really seems to be a sore subject on this site...

So a pale green smiley but just for the picture, nothing to do with the note.
...shoulda stuck with the witch and moon....hahahaha, sorry, just kidding

John

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• Signal-Womb (10385)
• [2007-07-15 15:49]

Hi Lucie, great read and expressive picture. I love the way you present your posts to TE, each image is accompanied with informative note. Very much in the TE spirit, well done.

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• leo1 (137)
• [2007-07-16 7:14]
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• ben4321 (9335)
• [2007-07-16 9:59]

Despite the fact that they are trying to protect their modesty, they clearly don't seem that upset to be photographed - probably the fact that you're a woman made the whole thing less of a big deal to them. A western man with a camera would quickly find himself running into all kinds of problems in a similar situation!.
The photo itself is quite good - a quick reaction shot to the passing girls perhaps, but it's well framed and the shallow depth of field works well. I like how you caught the smiling eyes of the girl on the right.
What I really found interesting though was your note, the reactions to it, and your follow-up reaction. It's certainly generated quite a debate!
I don't really want to go into this too heavily (enough has been said already), but something you said in your note struck me. I know that it's all too easy to view an alien society through the prism of our own experience without looking at the way people behave from their own point of view. When the young Pakistani gave his email address to your friend, it wasn't intended as an insult to you, but rather an attempt to avoid insulting your male friend. Like it or not, when you were with him you were under his protection, so in the eyes of the local guys if they'd addressed you directly they would have been directly insulting and calling into question the manhood of your companion. Their apparent ignoring of you was just their way of being polite!
All I can say is try not to take offence too easily in these kinds of situations, and try and see things from a viewpoint other than your own.
I love it when a photo (or note) generates a strong reaction on this site - it makes things so much more interesting!

Cheers,
Ben

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• sarju (5300)
• [2007-07-16 16:38]

Hi Lucie,
A very insightful and applaudible note indeed, although it could be a bit too generalized in my opinion. I guess all of us are bound to make some generalizations.
on a completely different but somewhat parallel ground ... I know this fact very well that many white women in several parts of Islamic world as well as India are generalized as "easy", probably due to their open attitude towards sex ("women liberation") ... well genearlizations don't really stop over there. Recently in Canada, I met a very nice girl from Brazil ... and she told me that just because she was from Brazil, many guys in Canada treated her like easily available for sex ... which was pretty far from reality.
Anyways ... that were my two cents on Generalizations ... in a nutshell, I think we do live in a male dominated world .. a woman going with more than one guy is considered a "bitch" ..whereas man is considered "macho". (Not at all in my opinion though)

About the photo .... it is a beautiful capture of the shy and reserved character of the rual Pakistani women. A very well seen and captured indeed.
Be Safe ... stay out of trouble
cheers .... sarju
PS: About your note, a part of me does agree with you as you do have Human rights Stats with you (but than I must say that there could be some subjectivity in your note

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• IgorDeleze (17302)
• [2007-07-19 3:03]

Hello Lucie,
I do not have visited Pakistan. So I will not take a position on the note.
But you were there and I think we must respect what you feel during this travel.

The picture is really nice. I like the "natural"...

Congratullations.
Greetings.
Igor

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• uzy (0)
• [2007-07-19 23:26]

When i first saw the picture i thought the girl on the left was sarcastically doing the conservative pose, and that the girl on right was slightly blushing/uncomfortable/put on the spot and laughing at the pose her friend was putting on.

Parts of the northern areas like the city of Abbotabad do have an extra conservative element. I remember when i went to a restaurant there with my family, and how everyone was staring at us because families w/ females would normally be sitting in these stalls where the curtain is pulled over.

I'm a Pakistani female from Lahore, and i could tell that other visiting Pakistani families from other areas of Pakistan were also feeling uncomfortable at being stared at like that. In this case, it was the natives of the particular region(mainly Pashto who are also found in Afghanistan) who tend to be super conservative.

I still remember when i went rock climbing up north. Our guides could speak French, and several were Aghakhani muslims. He had stopped his education and sent the money he made as a guide, to his OLDER sisters, for their medical education as they were to become doctors. The region he came from was more of a female dominating society.

I've lived in both the rural and urban areas of Pakistan. In rural areas, you would see more men, but in the village i was in, it was not 'rare' to see women either. Furthermore, i was actually surprised at how bold and tough they are. I've seen women openly cussing at men they do not know, or coming in the middle of the street with a whole crowd, yelling at her husband. Many have their ways of pulling strings---as in, they get things done through their husband or brother, but they often have power in the sense that they control them and their minds through the back channels...complicated family politics.

I'm living in Lahore right now, I drive around, eat out with both my male and female friends, go to concerts, plays etc and it isn't a big deal. I love this place, and its known for its amazing food...u really should check it out.

Anyways, the point of this long 'essay' was simply that Pakistan is a very diverse country---the landscape(its got deserts, mountains, beaches..etc)but also in terms of its people. The levels of the male-dominated attitudes vary. Though i can understand ur way of perceiving things, to avoid putting certain pakistanis or ppl of any other country on the defense, it would probably be a better idea to specify the specific region of Pakistan rather than talking of Pakistan in general :)

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• bazal (7892)
• [2007-07-27 12:54]

Hi Lucie.

I am usually more attracted by landscape photographs than by people or portraits, especially on TE where I think a lot of contributions are just using scenes of human behaviour as a way to provide what I would call "easy emotions" (I don't know if my limited English allows me to make what I mean perfectly clear). At the end, showing an old woman on a market or a poor man begging for food becomes a bit as exhibiting a new sport car at the front of a shop...

But it's not what I feel by looking at this image.

The first thing is that your photograph is obviously not stolen and these ladies did know that they were your models. And eventhough, their behaviour is perfectly natural.

The second point is that they look very happy, even if a little bit intimidated, which is so different from so many other shots where showing the so-called cruel reality of the world becomes rather some kind of partially hidden voyeurism. It's so nice to see that people from the other side of the world are smiling too despite any kind of economical, political, social or religious situations! On these aspects, as i've never been in this country, I won't allow myself to make any comment on the content of your note. You said what you felt there and that's, to my opinion, your right (and duty?).

The third point is the composition, and the technical aspects. With its slightly unbalanced composition, and the legs crop-out, this shot is clearly not a classic realization responding perfectly to all the standarts and dogmas that are supposed to mark to way to get to the "good photograph". And at the end, you know what? It makes this picture so refreshing and different!
But I have to admit, that, on the top of that my poor technical skills won't allow me to make any comments on the technical aspect themselves. I just really like the way the pieces of clothes are moving in the wind.

And finally, I would not be able to define what adds even more to all of that. Perhaps a little bit of "soul" that I did not find for long on a simple picture.

Well, sorry if my "critique" is gd-dmnd long and boring, and many thanks for sharing!

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• ommishra (1129)
• [2007-09-27 10:57]
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• fotomek (912)
• [2007-10-11 5:48]

really nice, the girl's are obviously hesitating whether to keep a low "muslim" profile or to get acquainted and laugh together with you! wonderful moment - congratulation & TFS - Tom
PS. as to the Kingdom of SA - yes, no women are allowed to drive (should they want to exercise, it's possible but in.. neighboring Bahrain ;-) this is also correct there are certain limitations incl. travelling with a man being your husband, brother or... son! (enough if he's sth like 12 years old - already can take care of the mother :))